In this episode of Life Intended, host Kelly Berry welcomes Dr. Randall Alifano, a clinical psychologist and ordained minister with over 40 years of experience integrating psychology and spirituality. Together, they dive deep into the transformative power of listening, the concept of "Listening in the Raw," and how removing filters and embracing receptivity can profoundly change our relationships and our understanding of ourselves. Dr. Alifano shares actionable insights on overcoming the societal norm of isolation, reconnecting with innocence, and cultivating a sense of curiosity and vulnerability to foster authentic human connection.
Dr. Alifano explains how childhood experiences shape our listening habits and create emotional filters. These filters, while initially protective, can block authentic communication in adulthood. Becoming aware of these filters allows us to consciously let them go, creating space for genuine connection.
True listening is an act of vulnerability. By remaining curious and open, we invite others to share more authentically. This process also transforms us as listeners, expanding our perspectives and deepening our relationships.
Rediscovering our innocence—the innate ability to know what we need and want—can make us more present and empathetic listeners. When we approach life with childlike curiosity and openness, we create opportunities for deeper understanding and connection.
Instead of numbing anxiety, Dr. Alifano suggests approaching it with curiosity. Anxiety holds valuable information about our inner experiences and can guide us toward self-awareness and growth when we engage with it thoughtfully.
Dr. Alifano emphasizes that listening is a practice, much like meditation. He shares techniques such as deep breathing and grounding in the body to quiet the mind and foster genuine receptivity, which are crucial for improving communication in relationships.
Kelly Berry (00:00)
Hi friends, you're listening to Life Intended, a podcast that explores what it means to be true to yourself and live an authentic and purposeful life. I'm your host, Kelly Berry, and each episode of Life Intended explores my guest version of personal growth, self-discovery, and the pursuit of becoming the best version of themselves. Our conversations are designed so that you can take what you need and incorporate it into your life to live with more intention and authenticity.
Whether you're seeking to develop your leadership skills, overcome challenges, or simply live a more fulfilling life, you will find guidance, motivation, and practical strategies to help you navigate your unique journey. On today's show, I'm happy to introduce Dr. Randall Alefano. Randall has a PhD in clinical psychology and is an ordained minister with over years of integrating psychology and spirituality in his private practice.
He has worked with a diverse group of people at various stages of their lives, listening to their dreams and aspirations, their traumas and confusions, and their desire to live life more attuned to their own inner wisdom. And he has loved doing it his entire career. Over the decades, he has studied numerous theories and methodologies, both psychological and spiritual, and they've all filtered down to inform he is and how he works.
Randall draws on his wealth experience to provide practical guidance on how to get away from habituated patterns that inhibit listening with presence, empathy, and curiosity in his book, Listening in the Raw, Coming Home to Receptivity. He has seen firsthand the transformative power of being heard, and he offers concrete examples of how listening in the raw can help deepen our relationships, enhance our personal growth,
and end our accepted state of isolation. Welcome to the podcast, Randall. It's great to have you here.
Dr. Randall Alifano (01:57)
It's wonderful to be here, Kelly. Thanks.
Kelly Berry (01:59)
Yeah, so tell us more about your expertise in listening. How did this become the thing that you use in your therapy, as well as what you decided to write your book on?
Dr. Randall Alifano (02:16)
Well, that's a big question. It all started really, really in childhood when I would look at my family and see that everybody was talking and nobody was listening. And as I would pay attention to the whole big table, I noticed people were aching to be heard. I could feel it. And yet nobody was. So they would talk over each other, hoping that they would be heard, but they were sabotaging their own desire by not listening.
Kelly Berry (02:18)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (02:45)
So that made me feel alone. I imagined they all felt And as I grew up, I thought I wanted to listen to people. I wanted to know who they were. So even in high friends would come over to my house. I converted my upstairs bedroom into a little office. And I would ask questions and be curious about why they thought this or that or the other. And people would...
started coming to see me when I was just 16, 17, 18 years And I loved listening to them. I loved really hearing how they perceived life. And I noticed when I really had a felt experience of, you see it that way, I started to expand. My perception started to open up and I could see and feel people differently. So it became a passion of mine, which is why I became a therapist.
Kelly Berry (03:38)
Mm-hmm. So at that young age when you were doing this, were you also then giving advice or were you just listening, like giving them a place to be heard?
Dr. Randall Alifano (03:52)
Mostly it was a place to be heard. But what I noticed was when I was genuinely curious and following my that was the advice because I would ask questions and they would drop in more and more and more underneath their original and really start to have a felt experience of what they were trying to communicate. So they would feel better, have a little shift in perspective. And this is the kicker.
It wasn't just that I was being of service to them. I noticed that when I really listened, when I was genuinely curious, I changed. My perspective started to expand in ways it wouldn't have otherwise.
Kelly Berry (04:33)
Yeah. I have, I was just sharing with you, I bought your book. I am probably about halfway through and have skimmed the rest of it just in preparation for a conversation today. But I think it is fascinating. And today when we're recording is November 4th. It's the day before the election. All that I can think about as I'm reading this book is how poor of listeners that we are and how many of these
filters and I'll let you talk more about those, but all of the filters that we have that really prevent us from truly listening or hearing our inherent biases know, in today's world, very black and white thinking that I think that a lot of people have. So I definitely want to talk about that. But the last sentence of your bio had something that I would like for you to expand on a little bit more. It says,
our accepted state of isolation. Talk about that. What does that mean?
Dr. Randall Alifano (05:35)
It goes along with what I said about my childhood, which is by and large, people don't expect to be heard. They don't expect to really be listened to. And that's why we talk way more than we listen. Like John Wayne said, we're long on mouth and short on ears. And so I think instead of people
Kelly Berry (05:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (05:59)
kind of doing what I did, which is I just want to listen. I want to get what it's like over there. They continued to talk. And so they didn't learn how to listen. And so their aloneness that we all feel, and I think we all feel it to one degree or another, became the accepted state. Instead of challenging it from, well, what could I do to be less alone? We kept on doing the same thing, which is talking, talking and not listen. And so there wasn't a connection, a communion when two people are talking to each other.
And I think we pick it up. I think generally speaking when someone's not listening to us, we know. We may not even think it, that person's not listening to me, but there's a way we take a baby step back. We recognize we're not really being heard. And I think that's our accepted state of isolation.
Kelly Berry (06:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that. And I've talked to another expert on the podcast recently, actually, who is like a behavioral health expert. And she just talks about the importance of connections in your life and how, you know, you should have at least three. I can't remember the exact term she used for it, but.
Dr. Randall Alifano (07:03)
Yes.
Kelly Berry (07:14)
at least three deep connections. You know, have all of these other kind of like loose connections, but in general, as a society, over the past, I don't know, 20 plus years, we've gone from an average of three of these connections to only two. And while that sounds like not a huge shift, it really, really is because it's like a third less, even, you know, maybe not even as deep of connections as we should have, but deeper than all of these other superficial type.
connection. yeah, I definitely am understanding more and more as I talk to people how important these connections are and how truly at the root of them it is listening. It's listening to understand, listening to help someone feel heard and that truly is what connects that deeper friendship, that deeper support system. Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (08:05)
Yes.
Yes, absolutely. And we all know it. When someone's really listening, we drop into our body more and more. We start to have more feeling and we start to feel real connection with the other And it's like you were talking about the election. It's sorely lacking these days. Even with social media, people now have lots of permission to say whatever they want, or I should say type whatever they want, but there's not much receptivity.
Kelly Berry (08:25)
Thank
Dr. Randall Alifano (08:35)
So I feel like as a society, we're even moving more towards expression, even if it's half-baked, and less and less towards, let's sit down and really listen to each other. And that's sad.
Kelly Berry (08:36)
Mm-hmm.
it is. I do think it's a void. I think we're probably in some kind of tipping point arena where I think it's becoming felt enough that maybe people will start to do something about it. I'm not really sure. I'm not predicting the future. But I do think that there's this awareness that's coming about from how alone everybody feels because all of our relationships are
you know, from behind a screen and to your point, like there is really no conversation. It's a lot of people talking at each other.
Dr. Randall Alifano (09:24)
That's right. That's a good way to put it. Talking at each other instead of with each other. So we're in receptivity.
Kelly Berry (09:26)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Yes, we are. Whether that's known or not or even, I don't know, I just feel like a lot of people just, you know, they'll say, I'm holding my tongue. Like they're not, they're not even like now speaking the things that they think they could have a conversation about because we're so conditioned that the other person isn't going to hear us. They're just going to react to us instead of respond.
Dr. Randall Alifano (09:57)
Exactly. That's what I mean by accepted isolation. This is the norm. It's not going to change. And again, that's dreadfully sad.
Kelly Berry (10:00)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So talk about in your book. I think that there's so so much wisdom in there I know that you it's a lot of years of work that have gone into it but in general give an overview of like what you think is preventing us from listening. How do we identify that? How do we work on that within our own our own selves in our own relationships?
Dr. Randall Alifano (10:31)
Again, that's a great question and a big But I actually think it starts in childhood, like most of our psychology. Depending on how our parents listen to us or not, we learn that we can express what we need and want and desire, or we should pack it away. So a story I like to mention is if your child is, I don't know, seven years old and has a nightmare in the middle of the night.
and you have to get up at 6 a.m. to go to work, you have a choice. You can go into that room and say, look, there are no monsters under the bed. Go to sleep, I have to work in the morning and leave. That child learns like that. don't bring fear. If I bring fear, I get hurt more. I get shamed and I'm still alone in the dark, terrified. If the parent goes in and says, what happened, sweetie? And they sit on the bed and they say, tell me everything. What was it like?
Do want me to look under the bed with you? And they just sit with the child. The child learns, when I'm beyond myself, I'm so scared. The world wants to hear from me. I feel safe. They grow up, even in a future marriage, let's say, or a partnership, they grow up believing the world wants to hear from me when I don't feel so well. Now that's just one little example. think these examples are repeated thousands of times in our childhood.
maybe I should say hundreds, let's not get where a child learns whether they're going to be listened to or not. So when a child is told, I don't have time for you when you're scared, a filter is created. I feel fear. I don't wanna work through that filter to bring the fear, because I know what happens. So I don't bring And what will happen is when I'm an adult and someone else is telling me how scared they are,
that filter is in place. So instead of me being able to drop into, fear, tell me more, what's it like for you? We go to, well, you you don't need to be afraid because whatever advice we're going to give and then connection is broken. So like I say in the book, how do we become increasingly aware of all the filters we've had to accumulate through our life to protect our innocence, that raw place inside of us? So we can see whether
so that we can have a choice. I need this filter. I'm out in the world and I need protection. So filter is a good thing. Or here I am talking to my partner. I don't need that filter. I quietly let that go and then really show So the more we're aware of the filters we've had to accumulate to protect ourselves, the more we have a choice keep right here or let them go so we can really listen.
Kelly Berry (13:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (13:17)
The advantage I've had as a counselor therapist is I sit in a safe environment with people all these years where all I want to do is hear from them. All I want to do is get what it's like from inside So it has expanded both of us, all of us, I should say.
Kelly Berry (13:33)
Can you give some more examples of most common filters that you see so that the audience can start to think through like what does this mean or what other kind of filters might I have that are impacting the way that I'm hearing things today?
Dr. Randall Alifano (13:49)
Sure, there's two things that come to mind. There's probably, again, hundreds. But what comes to mind is when we believe we know what the other person's talking about So this is a mistake therapists make all the time. A client might say, my mother was an alcoholic. And the therapist, because they've talked to many children who were children of alcoholics, they can flip in the filter of, I know what this is like. I know what it was like for you. As opposed to, all right.
I may know what it's like. I've talked to many people. I can feel the filter because there's a somatic contraction when we have a filter. We've tightened up. I can let that go and start asking questions. I want to err on the side of presuming I don't know yet. So how do we sit in the unknown? The second part of the answer that just came up for me was
Typically we have anxiety running through us. And if we're feeling a little anxious, we tend to want to get away from anxiety. So if someone says something that even tweaks a teeny bit of anxiety, we tend to want to drift away. And we're not even aware of it oftentimes. Instead of going, I feel anxious. That's curious. What did you say? And I noticed I had a little in me when you said that. What's like to pursue the anxiety because it has something to teach us too.
Is that clear?
Kelly Berry (15:09)
yes it is. one of the things that I took away from your book and I think is a powerful position on anxiety how really as a society what what and I'll put we in air quotes here like what we as a society are trying to do is numb our anxiety. We're trying to medicate for it. We're trying
Dr. Randall Alifano (15:17)
Thank
Yes.
Well said.
Kelly Berry (15:33)
use all of these numbing behaviors so that we don't feel it. But to your point that you just made, it is feedback for us. It is trying to tell us something. And so I just thought as I read that, that is so interesting that we are just trying to escape it. But what if we stopped and sat with it and let it tell us more about ourselves or our situation or our life?
Dr. Randall Alifano (15:42)
Yes.
Yes.
Kelly Berry (16:02)
And when we do that, I think it would help us instead of hurt us like we probably initially feel like it will help us Get or stay on the right path does that make sense?
Dr. Randall Alifano (16:15)
Perfect sense, well said, yes, exactly that. And that's where curiosity comes in.
Kelly Berry (16:19)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I know, like, I think you even said this in your book, like, you know, there are cases where that medicine is the right route, but there are tons of cases where it is not. And how do we how do we make a change with that, I guess, so that it's felt differently?
Dr. Randall Alifano (16:21)
Instead
Well, that's again a really pregnant question. I don't know. I I hope what we're talking about makes a little dent in that system. psychiatry is absolutely essential, but I've worked with several psychiatrists with clients. And there are those psychiatrists who will say, you're anxious. Here's a pill. And there are other psychiatrists that you're anxious. Tell me more about it.
Kelly Berry (16:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (17:08)
And then we'll decide if a pill is appropriate and which pill would be most appropriate. Or maybe this isn't generalized anxiety disorder. Maybe you're being told something from an inner wisdom that now has been torqued a little bit to feel like fear or anxiety. Let's go after
Kelly Berry (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (17:28)
So again, like you said, all these filters, even if the psychiatrist or anybody really has a good it can be subverted with, I get what's going on. It's anxiety. Let's get anxiety out of the field. Let's be curious about it.
Kelly Berry (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So what are some like, just real quick, like practical or tactical steps that somebody who gets a feeling of anxiety, like how can they learn to do something with it, do something productive with it?
Dr. Randall Alifano (17:59)
I think this is where years ago, Asya Jolie, a beautiful man, developed psychosynthesis. And since then, people talk about parts work and now there's internal family systems. Anytime we could feel anxiety, let me back up. It's like meditation. If you're meditating, let's say on breath and a thought comes in, the idea isn't get rid of the thought, we have to come back to breath. It's, thought, hello, come back to breath. There's no struggle there.
Kelly Berry (18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (18:29)
It could be the same with anxiety, where we feel anxiety, go, yeah, anxiety, I feel that. Instead of anxiety running us, it's, right there, it's anxiety. What's up, buddy? What's happening right now with Kelly that you feel anxious? And then you get information. It usually talks back. And that's, to me, that's where wisdom lies, is instead of getting away from this, away from that, approach it with curiosity and humility.
Kelly Berry (18:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (18:56)
That's a super important part, as best as I can is presume I don't know it Presume I'm just one other person on the planet doing the best they can. Settle down. Listen.
Kelly Berry (19:08)
Yeah, so to me that sounds a lot like what is advised when you're feeling any emotion really is like to stop and name it and naming it gives you, it makes this feeling a thing and so it's a thing that you can sort through rather than a feeling that you don't know what to do with. So it's almost like, okay, I feel this, now I'm gonna name it for what it is, it's anxiety. I'm almost gonna like step outside myself.
and look at it as it's something separate from me, not just to the way that you talked about it, not just something that's in here running the show.
Dr. Randall Alifano (19:46)
Right, exactly that. You don't want it to run the show. You want to listen to its information. It's as simple as that. Of course, easier said than It takes practice. That's why I call listening a meditation. Because how to deepen our meditation throughout our life. No one's ever an expert at it. You always have thoughts and feelings. How to sit back and watch, listen to. It's an ongoing skill to develop.
Kelly Berry (19:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
yeah. Yes, I agree with that. One thing that has come up with several of my guests and really just people that I've been talking to lately is this like loss of intuition, loss of personal intuition, loss of the ability to trust yourself. So I was thinking through this and I think this example of like stopping and naming anxiety as it comes up is a perfect example like,
How does what you teach in like listening, how do we apply that to ourselves to start to listen to ourselves better?
Dr. Randall Alifano (20:50)
Beautiful. Well done. Yes. Again, same thing. Like we were talking about anxiety, how to drop in and listen, notice it as a Have a broader perspective of, I'm safe in the unknown. I don't have to know exactly what's going on every Creativity, wisdom, exploration, all comes from the unknown. So to establish a relationship with that, again, with And then as things come up,
we can approach them more gently, more quietly. So when I'm talking to someone, if they're talking about childhood, I can hear my mind, my rational mind putting pieces If I get hooked up to that, my listening is now contracted. If I go, that's interesting, I'm thinking of this and that, now drop down, be back in my body. And then intuition starts to speak to me because I'm not lost up here.
all of my being is receptive. And I'll hear those voices differently. I may hear, two plus two, yes, that equals four, let's proceed. It's very different from, you know what, I just had a thought. I just thought this thing, what do you think about And it may be a completely different thought than what came from my rational mind. And it's invitational. The thoughts that come from here usually are, I get what's going on, this.
Psychologists are big fans of making interpretations. I'm a big fan of waiting for what you just talked about, for that intuition to speak to me and check it out with the other person from a place of curiosity. Does that sound right? Does that resonate with you? And then they'll say, yeah, 80 % that way, but that 20 % we have to let go of. And now we have a whole different trajectory we're traveling.
Kelly Berry (22:39)
Yeah, I do. how do you or how does somebody, I know I shared this with you in a previous conversation that we had, but one of my challenges as a listener is that my thoughts are always going louder than my ears can hear. And so whether it's trying to figure out how I'm gonna respond, how I'm trying to figure out how I'm interpreting what I'm hearing, I have a lot of noise in my head all the time that
Dr. Randall Alifano (22:39)
Follow?
Kelly Berry (23:08)
you know, I'm working on, but it is an inhibitor. So as someone who's trying to like reconnect with myself and my intuition and that trust I have for what I want and need, like how do you get better at doing it?
Dr. Randall Alifano (23:25)
get better at
Kelly Berry (23:26)
Yeah, like kind of quietening the mind or you you keep saying like dropping down into your body. Like how do you, how do you practice getting better at that?
Dr. Randall Alifano (23:37)
Good question. That's why I use the analogy of meditation. Because if I'm talking to someone and I'm up here, my listening is compromised. So I will literally take a breath all the way through my solar plexus into my pelvis. I'll just feel my whole thoracic cavity expand. And then I'm quieter. Because my attention is less here and it's more down here. So there's a quiet. If I continue that for
30 seconds. I'm hearing things very differently than I was 30 seconds ago. So to me, it's how to take my attention and again, exercise a choice. The problem is, kind of like how accustomed we are to isolation, we think being up here with the spinning thoughts is normal and we don't question it. And this is how we live our lives. And then the sad part is,
we're not even palpating how alone we feel. But if we can notice all those thoughts and go, OK, I got that, now drop down, feel my body, literally feel my body, my breath, my solar plexus, contractions in my leg or chest or whatever, and drop into that, then just like meditation, now the quiet is more sustained. My mind is quieter and therefore more receptive. And I think
I'm hoping that's what we're looking for is more receptivity.
Kelly Berry (25:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. I guess the way to practice getting better and it is practice. you know, sometimes, you know, I've been, I've had the like fight or of reaction where I'm just not able to really, especially in the moment, like stop and think so it's probably...
Dr. Randall Alifano (25:07)
So practice, practice, practice.
You
Kelly Berry (25:30)
just something like you're talking about. You're not gonna snap your fingers and become better at it or snap your fingers and no longer have that type of reaction. But the more that you're aware of and practice and know how to respond to those situations, the more apt you're able to.
Dr. Randall Alifano (25:48)
Exactly, exactly that. And like meditation, the rewards are great. Because when I'm dropped into my body, I'm really listening with intuition, curiosity. I have a different connection with that person. Like I said earlier, I'm starting to expand. I'm starting to see things in a different way. So self is now and I'm not alone. So every time I really drop in and listen, I'm rewarded immediately with how lovely this is.
Kelly Berry (25:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (26:16)
how beautiful this person is I'm speaking how we're connecting, and that feeling in the pit of your stomach where you're alone, it's quiet now, because you're not alone.
Kelly Berry (26:25)
So why would somebody like they would want to become a better listener? Or guess maybe a different way to ask that is what are some of the benefits listening this more open, approach?
Dr. Randall Alifano (26:44)
That's a beautiful
Well, the first question to I'm hoping for a paradigm shift because again, I think people trying to get out of aloneness by talking more. And I'm hoping people get, if they're more receptive, that's when the aloneness really ebbs. And I don't think people can really change until they've had that experience when they start to feel, which is what many counselors experience. They really listen and get, and they think,
Kelly Berry (26:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (27:13)
This makes my life better. So how to drop in to have a few of those experiences so you think, I get it. Really like for you, how my partner feels, that makes me feel I want to do more of that. And again, in terms of the benefits, listening in the raw for me has changed my life. With friends, with my children, with my partner, with clients.
I don't feel so alone. I feel connected with and my perspective really shifts. And I like that. Like you were saying earlier about the election, you know, people aren't even listening to candidates anymore. They just, I'm this way or I'm that And I'm, praying that they can then feel how that's contraction. So when someone brings a different whether it's religion, science, politics, instead of going, that's not right. My
my Bible says this, not that, or science says, to really feel the pleasure of, I haven't thought about it that way. Tell me more. Teach me what you have to say. I want to learn. And then I'll decide whether I want to incorporate or
but we truncate listening way too early.
Kelly Berry (28:24)
So if someone has a relationship in their life that they feel a lot of tension in and they want to work on the communication in that relationship, or not they're the one who is doing a lot of talking or the other person is, what are some steps that they can take to work on a specific relationship that they have in their life that they wanna improve?
Dr. Randall Alifano (28:48)
You mean besides listening?
Kelly Berry (28:50)
definitely listening would be the thing that they want to work on, but like how do they approach that with someone?
Dr. Randall Alifano (28:57)
I think, you know, in therapy, it's easy because there's kind of an established one's listening, one's talking. In a partnership, both people want to be heard, even if that's not on the table between them. So I feel like if one individual just drops into listening in the raw, it's imbalanced. Both people have to think, you know what, let's take a different look at this. You don't feel listened to, I don't feel listened to.
Kelly Berry (29:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (29:26)
I particularly don't feel listened to when I bring up this material. How do we sit down and make an agreement? Okay, let's change how we've been doing this. Let's even maybe take turns for five minutes. All I'm going to do is be curious and ask you questions because I want to know what that's like for you. And this way I won't get reactive when you say, well, you you said that thing the other day. I don't have to get reactive to that. So what did I say and what did it mean to you? Well, you can lean in more and But I do feel like an agreement.
is very helpful in this because if someone's just listening and the other person's just it gets a little tricky in a partnership.
Kelly Berry (30:02)
Yeah. So say that that scenario is, you know, it's they're getting off to a healthy start. They agree to be like listening and curious, but it gets tense because when they are like, well, when I said this, how did you feel? And then somebody takes offense to how the other person felt. Like, are there tactics or ways that you can work through how you receive information?
Dr. Randall Alifano (30:30)
Again, Kelly, great question. To me, it depends on the level of distraction, we'll call it. Because if my partner says something to me and I get reactive, if it's a small to medium sized reactivity, I can go, I know, I got that. OK, now, and come back to. If it's a big one, I might have say something my lady and I do is we'll say, let's pause. Because I'm getting reactive, say.
Kelly Berry (30:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (30:59)
I'm not going to do well because I'm feeling so how do we take a pause, take a breath? I have to now say what's going on with me. So maybe in a moment you could listen just so I can get through that because my intention isn't to then dominate the conversation. I need to kind of get this out of my guts so that I can again drop down. Again, easier said than done, because when we get reactive, we want to be heard now.
Kelly Berry (31:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (31:29)
and that's a slippery slope.
Kelly Berry (31:31)
Yeah, that's probably a contributing factor to why that relationship is the way that it is anyway.
Dr. Randall Alifano (31:37)
Exactly.
Kelly Berry (31:38)
Awesome. Well, what are, I know that you've talked about humility. What are some of the other like big points in the book that you think are important and worth discussing?
Dr. Randall Alifano (31:47)
Well, a piece that you and I haven't talked about yet is one of latter chapters is on innocence. think the metaphor I like to hold in my mind is when I'm dropped into my own innocence, I can listen to anything and I can communicate with a clarity that I didn't have before. So let me give you an example. An example I use in the book in trying to define innocence.
Kelly Berry (31:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (32:17)
is a one-year-old child and you feed them steamed broccoli and right away they're they they look they don't want it a minute later you give them some ice cream a minute after that they're wearing it they just they want so in innocence we know what we want we know we don't want we know what we need we know we don't need it's clear we're hardwired at birth to know i'm hungry i need milk now
If I don't get it, I start to scream because I need it now. So for me, when I when I'm really curious, I have more access to my innocence. I can know what I really want and what I really don't want. It's it's who we are. The problem, and this is where I think psychology has been brilliant. All the little traumas, neglects, shaming that happened in childhood, we learned to protect innocence. Put it away.
Kelly Berry (32:50)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (33:17)
So if I'm talking to you and I even see you do this, and my mom used to do that, I will all barely perceptively, but mostly unconsciously, I'll put innocence back in the corner because I'm not safe here. And now receptivity, real contact, it's compromised. So I like to listen to people from a place of my own innocence where I'm just enthralled with what is this person talking about? And can I give you another example?
Kelly Berry (33:47)
Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (33:48)
It's also in the book where I love to hike in the woods and my son was maybe, I don't know, four years old or something, my third son. And I thought I want to get him into hiking so he and I can hike together as he grows up. So I designed this perfect plan, flat in the beautiful redwoods up here in Marin County. We'll hike in maybe half mile, hike out. It'll be perfect for him. We get out of the car. We start to hike.
10 meters in, he's on his knees. Papa, Papa, look. He's looking at a leaf or I don't know. yeah, that's a leaf, but it's really hurt. Okay, let's go. Two feet later, Papa, look, a lizard. And he's enthralled with the lizard. This goes on and on, roots, lizards, bugs, leaves. And at one point, maybe 15 minutes in, I start to get impatient.
Are we going to do the walk or not? I've got this beautiful hike planned out for you." And I heard it in my head before I even said it to my son. And what hit me was, what am I doing? I want him to have a great experience. He's having a great experience. I had a good intention. We have to hike to there and then hike back. And that's a good hike. He's teaching me, no, all we have to walk is 50 yards and we're going to have a fantastic day.
And so when I got that, I dropped into my own innocence of, right, I should look at these roots. They're amazing. And I got down on my knees with him and we started picking up earwigs and we just completely were two innocent kids enthralled with what was in front of us moment to moment.
Kelly Berry (35:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (35:35)
And I'll remember that for the rest of my life.
Kelly Berry (35:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that as the mother of a toddler. Unrealized expectations happen, you know, from moment to moment. You have this idea of how things are going to go and then they show you that they really show you what's actually important versus what you what you think to be important. So when you're when you're describing that, what you're talking about is like trying to be
Dr. Randall Alifano (35:59)
Exactly.
Kelly Berry (36:06)
your son on the hike and notice what's happening rather than try to meet an expectation.
Dr. Randall Alifano (36:16)
Right, I have a good intention. We're gonna take this hike. It got in the way of me really listening to my son's innocence.
Kelly Berry (36:23)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (36:25)
And so when I finally, what am I doing and got it and listened to his innocence, my innocence came out and I was enthralled with earwigs. I've known earwigs for many, many decades. Who cares? No, they're fascinating creatures. And so.
Kelly Berry (36:39)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (36:39)
And so it was a beautiful moment. And what I realized was if I had slipped up and said, Nico, come on, let's go. We've got a hike to do. He wouldn't have said, no, Papa. He would have said, OK, Papa. He would have got up and started to walk and he would have learned. Don't get on your knees looking at earwigs when you're hiking. You should walk. And I would have hurt him without even knowing I was hurting him, thinking, come on, this is I've got this beautiful thing planned for you.
Kelly Berry (36:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (37:06)
I had to drop into my innocence to get the beauty of what he was teaching me, which is, Papa, get out of your intention, get inside this incredible landscape right here. And he was right. I was wrong and he was right.
Kelly Berry (37:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So how does that innocence serve us in our day-to-day life?
Dr. Randall Alifano (37:26)
If I can hold and see my innocence, I can help but to see another's innocence. So even when they're off balance, they're angry, they're withdrawn, I can stay connected that innocent place in them. And we like to think of innocence as little kids, and that's helpful because we tend to open our hearts more to little kids. But I'm talking about a state of mind that we're born with as far as I can
And if we drop into that, every contact is different. Every contact has an aliveness to it. So how to stay focused on that? How to stay connected to an exercise I give clients is I call it the I want exercise. I'll say, ask from your head, which is where we ask, what do I want right now? And then the problem we have is we stay in the head trying to figure out what I want. No.
What do I want right now? And then like a meditation, breathe into your belly, be quiet and listen for an answer. See what you get. Sometimes you'll get nothing. Okay. Ask again later. Sometimes you get, I want to be on Maui right now. Okay. That's a great idea. We can't do that right now, but great. Keep them coming. So that voice starts to talk to us more and more because it's starting to feel a safety that was weeded out.
when we were children. So we start to be the good mama and papa to that part of ourselves that really does want to hear, what is it you really want?
Kelly Berry (38:59)
Yeah, and I think to my kind of like our previous topic of kind of people's loss of intuition, like loss of really knowing who they are, what they want, what they need. It sounds like that is a real tangible way to reconnect with that part of yourself. Because yeah, because your point, like when we were innocent, we knew without question what we wanted and what we needed. And it's all of the...
Dr. Randall Alifano (39:19)
exact.
Kelly Berry (39:28)
all of the things that have happened along the way that cause us to be, you know, so fuzzy.
Dr. Randall Alifano (39:33)
Right. And I think what's important, this is kind of I don't know, theoretical. My opinion is innocence has no defenses. Innocence is pure being. So we have to erect defenses. We have to create different parts of self that keep innocence out of the field to protect it. We repeat that a few hundred times and pretty soon become more identified with the protector than the innocence.
Kelly Berry (39:59)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (40:00)
So we go through life with the protector or protectors as the case may be, navigating through life, waiting for the next hurt, neglect, whatever it is. Because the protector's intention is to protect innocence, because innocence can't protect itself. But the problem is we become so identified with protection that again, because we're not connected to innocence, we're not connected to real curiosity, we're not really listening.
you and I are not having a genuine deep relationship.
Do you follow?
Kelly Berry (40:33)
Yeah, I do. It sounds to me like vulnerability and the lengths that people go to to not be vulnerable because it's painful.
Dr. Randall Alifano (40:45)
Exactly that. Thank you. That's exactly the word. listening. Go ahead. Sorry.
Kelly Berry (40:46)
Yeah. And. Mm hmm. Well, I was just going to say, like, vulnerability is another topic that has come up in the podcast several times, because I also think that that's, you know, in order to get to who you really are and what you really want and what is truly going to make you and your heart happy, like you have to be vulnerable, really the opposite of that is you're you're doing what society.
says that you should be or what some person that you think has a certain expectation. know, you're just, until you're truly vulnerable and stop to recognize how you're thinking, how you're feeling, why you're feeling that way, being open to other people to let them see who you really are, then you really can't get to the point that you're talking about, to that innocence or connection.
Dr. Randall Alifano (41:44)
Beautifully said, beautifully said. Yes. That's why I titled the book Listening in the Raw. Because we have to be, there's a feeling of nakedness when we're really listening, where we're permeable. We're being, the person's narrative is actually penetrating us. It's entering us. And if we're walled off protecting, it bounces off us. We don't really hear it. So yeah, that's a key part to me of Listening in the Raw. And maybe the hardest part, which is,
Kelly Berry (41:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (42:13)
Can you sustain a feeling of vulnerability while you're listening because you're open and who knows what's coming in so that you can really maximize your chances of really hearing where that person's at? And if you're not feeling vulnerable, meaning you're more up here, you're more protected, listening is impaired. It just is. So when I'm in my office, I'm feeling vulnerable.
Kelly Berry (42:36)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (42:41)
When I'm listening to one of my boys struggle, I don't want to just give them advice. you you should do this because I'm old and wise. No, I want to feel the vulnerability. So I have to drop down into my own. And then if I want to give advice, it's very different than the advice I wanted to give five minutes ago.
Kelly Berry (42:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (43:00)
and I'll check it out with them. I'll ask, does this sound right? I won't give advice like, know what you should do sweetheart, this.
Kelly Berry (43:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so when you're working with clients, do you take like a more consultative or like coaching approach and kind of help them arrive at what they need? Do you do a lot of advising? Like, what does that look like when you're in this kind of like listening therapy situation?
Dr. Randall Alifano (43:31)
Yeah, I wouldn't call it coaching. First of all, different people can go to different depths. But if we're talking about a client who really wants to know about themselves, like you say, it's it's a hike through vulnerability. So I keep on asking questions. Inviting them to speak from a more vulnerable place. And my experience is when the speaker hears.
Kelly Berry (43:41)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (44:00)
that the listener really wants to hear what they have to say all the way down to the belly, all the way down to vulnerability. They head there. They will typically start to go there. But even if they're not aware of it, that protector is right here watching you. Are you going to hurt me if I drop down another level? Will you do something? Will I notice you just step back a bit? And if you don't, if you stay in vulnerability, they'll drop in. And then the speaker and the listener
Kelly Berry (44:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (44:30)
start to hear something different that has more depth, more breadth, more intimacy, more vulnerability, and therefore it's more real. It's what all this other stuff has been sitting on.
Kelly Berry (44:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (44:46)
And then from that place, what to do next kind of presents itself. We don't have to navigate through the thickets of defenses.
Kelly Berry (44:52)
Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking it would be a possibility. maybe during that questioning process, it's actually the first time they've ever thought about those things to that depth. And so a lot of times, like thinking about them to that depth or verbalizing them, know, a lot of times maybe the person comes to their own conclusion or their own, you know,
understanding of what's been going on and then are more clearly able to see like the path forward. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.
Dr. Randall Alifano (45:23)
Right, exactly.
You make me think of a story, my lady, David, is also a therapist and sometimes we consult with each other. she was talking to someone who had been in therapy for 20 years with other therapists. And she asked them, they were talking about parents and David asked, so how did your mom comfort you? And it really came out of curiosity. And the person thought, I've never been asked that before.
Kelly Berry (45:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (45:56)
The whole conversation took a turn to, what have I learned about being comfortable when I'm vulnerable, when I need to be held? And if she hadn't asked that question, it would have gone another way. So again,
Kelly Berry (46:09)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Randall Alifano (46:11)
little movements this way or that way could dictate the direction of the conversation and everybody seems to want to avoid that vulnerability. When Davida asked, how did your mom comfort you? The client could feel you really want to know. You really want to know about that tender place where my mom didn't comfort me very well. Okay, let's go into that. And that opens up a whole field of other material.
Kelly Berry (46:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. it's amazing, the power of a question, for sure. Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (46:44)
Yeah. Especially if the question comes from real innocent curiosity, which is what David was demonstrating. And of course, I have the same experience when I asked someone a question from that place. 99 % of the time, the person goes, they drop in more. And that's its own reward because so many things follow from that. It's no longer a head talk. It's from the heart talk.
Kelly Berry (46:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
yeah, I we probably all have relationships like this, but I have some relationships in my life where the questioning feels far more like interrogation than it feels like listening.
Dr. Randall Alifano (47:25)
Right. Exactly. We don't interrogate from the heart.
Kelly Berry (47:27)
Yeah. Yeah. that can be. Yeah.
Dr. Randall Alifano (47:33)
We interrogate from here.
Kelly Berry (47:35)
And it makes me not want to share, you know, because it's like, yeah. I often describe it as being like pelted with questions, but just questions for questions sake, not really questions for understanding sake.
Dr. Randall Alifano (47:37)
Exactly.
And what I love about what you're saying is you know like that. If they're asking questions from up here in an interrogation type way or even something softer but up here, you feel it and you'll move back a centimeter. We just do. We know when someone's really curious and wanting to get to know us more deeply or not.
Kelly Berry (47:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. So I guess the takeaway for everyone from that is don't be an interrogator. Try to figure out how to listen and ask from the heart, which I think is kind of the center of this whole conversation.
Dr. Randall Alifano (48:29)
Yes, and curiosity. What's it like for you? How did you navigate that thing with your mother?
Kelly Berry (48:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent, excellent. So the book is great. I would encourage if this conversation has resonated with anyone, check it out. I will put the link in the show notes. But one, I guess, parting question that I wanted to ask you before we wrapped up is, do you have a message that you would like to get out into the world? Just like a succinct message about
this topic and how it relates to people.
Dr. Randall Alifano (49:04)
That's a challenge. You have to give me some time with that. If you me be succinct, it's going to be tricky. But essentially, take a breath, drop into your body and be really curious about where the other person is at, what they're trying to say. Just try it on and see how it changes you and the relationship.
Kelly Berry (49:07)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's great. Even on the spot with no time to think about it.
Dr. Randall Alifano (49:31)
Yeah
Kelly Berry (49:32)
that really it's the first step. So can't take the second step until you take the first step.
Dr. Randall Alifano (49:38)
Yes, yes.
Kelly Berry (49:39)
Yeah, great. I will put, know I've got linked to your website, a link to the book. We'll make sure people know where they can find you, learn more about you. But it's been a pleasure talking to you today, reading your book, getting to know more about you and this fascinating, I think, topic and approach really.
I'm working on it, working through it. Again, it's just another tool that I'm adding to my own toolbox to improve relationships. And really, the one that I'm working on the most right now is with myself, which is where a lot of the questions about improving the relationship that you have with yourself and the curiosity and the connection. So really looking forward to putting all that to work.
Dr. Randall Alifano (50:27)
Thank you. I love talking to you. I love the way you would drop in and ask questions that would really weave a nice story about listening. it was been a pleasure to talk to you.
Kelly Berry (50:38)
Well, great. Thank you so much. And thanks, everyone, for listening. And have a great rest of your day.
Kelly Berry is a strategic business leader and business coach. She is known for her operational excellence and her ability to drive growth and results across multiple industries.
She is also hosting her own podcast, Life Intended.
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