In this episode of Life Intended, host Kelly Berry talks with Jill Lerman, a play expert, early childhood educator, and parenting coach. Jill shares her expertise on how parents can connect with their children through play while fostering joy, creativity, and emotional intelligence. They discuss the importance of simple, open-ended play, balancing parenting with work, and the value of independent play in child development. This conversation is packed with actionable parenting strategies to help ease daily challenges and create meaningful connections with your child.
Jill emphasizes the significance of independent play in fostering creativity, problem-solving, and resilience in children. By allowing kids to explore and lead their play experiences, parents not only encourage their growth but also find moments of peace to focus on their own tasks. Jill explains that independent play is not about leaving children unattended but about being an "active observer" while the child takes control of their play.
Parents often feel pressured to create elaborate play setups, but Jill encourages simple play prompts using household items. This allows children to be creative and helps parents avoid feeling overwhelmed. Jill shares how something as simple as a bowl of water and some toys can spark hours of engaged play.
Jill explains how play helps children develop emotional intelligence, resilience, and problem-solving skills. By allowing children to experience frustration and work through challenges in their play, parents help them build essential life skills.
Jill highlights the importance of saving "no" for moments when it is truly necessary, such as for safety reasons. This helps make boundaries more effective while fostering a more joyful parenting experience. She suggests parents guide their children toward safer alternatives when a firm "no" is required.
Jill discusses how her membership provides play ideas for children from infancy to elementary school age. Each idea is designed to grow with the child and can be tailored to siblings of different ages. She emphasizes that play should be open-ended to encourage creativity and bonding between siblings.
Jill Lerman (00:00)
I don't know about you. I'm saying no all day, all day long. And it's exhausting. And if it's exhausting for me, I can only imagine what it feels like to my daughter to be hearing it all the time. So trying to come from this place of like, does it have to be a no? And sometimes it does, right? Safety, like there are certain things that is a non -negotiable, it's bedtime, right? No, we're not having ice cream for dinner, whatever it is, right? Certain things are a no. But I think as parents, the biggest thing I see is shutting down things that maybe don't have to be shut down. And I think when we save our nose for when we need them, they become more meaningful. children are more likely to actually like heed that advice and heed those nose. It also is just more joyful for us. I think that's a key part of getting through parenting is finding joy. I think our children feel a lot more seen and understood.
Kelly Berry (00:51)
Hi friends and welcome back to Life Intended. Life Intended is a podcast that explores what it means to be true to yourself and live an authentic and purposeful life. Each episode explores my guest version of personal growth, self discovery, and the pursuit of becoming the best version of themselves, as well as how to find joy in the journey. So thank you to so many of you who have been listening. Before we get started today, if I can just ask or remind you to subscribe to the podcast on whatever app you're listening and leave a rating and review. Ratings and reviews are the single best way for new listeners to find the show and for me to continue to grow it. So if you've done so, thank you very much. And if not, please take just a second to do that. Okay, so now on to what you're here for today. I'm excited to be talking with and sharing so much great conversation and info from my guest, Jill Lerman. Jill is a play and parenting coach, early childhood educator, play expert, and a mom to a toddler. She empowers overwhelmed parents and caretakers to connect and engage with their little ones through simple invitations to play and create to help make parenting feel more joyful and manageable. She also serves as a play expert and consultant for brands where she teaches classes, runs workshops, consults on product development, and provides play ideas. A mom herself
Jill knows how difficult getting through the day can be, which is why above all else, her approach makes it easy for parents to facilitate interaction and play that supports development. She loves helping families create an environment and culture that sees children as capable from their earliest days, that values creativity, playfulness, bonding, and connection. To learn more about Jill and Jilly Beans, check out her Instagram, at and her website, jilliebeansnyc.com, as well as in the show notes, I've got those links and some additional resources from Jill. So welcome to the show, Jill. I'm really excited for our conversation today.
Jill Lerman (02:53)
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be
Kelly Berry (02:56)
Yeah, so I know I kind of just talked about who you are as an expert and an expert in play. I'm excited about this because I am a mom of a toddler and although I do love to play with her, I know play can be hard for a lot of parents and families, know, toddler through you. You'll speak more to this. I know, but through whatever age the play is still continues to be very important. So tell us a little bit about like your background and how you got started as a play
Jill Lerman (03:10)
Yes. Yeah, sure. So I worked in early childhood education for 15 plus years. I was a preschool teacher in Manhattan in private preschool also taught in the parenting centers of those schools. So I taught the toddler preschool class and then also caretaker in me, mommy and me classes for babies and then the young toddlers that many of which then entered into the school when they were old enough. And play just was magic, is magic. And I would just see again and again how much learning and exploration and connection to the world around them and processing of feelings was happening for these children from infancy through their play and how things could just come alive at their hands, you know, and how they could use materials in ways that I couldn't even imagine when I put things out.
which then inspired me to start teaching my own play -based classes outside of the classroom where I would help families learn how they could facilitate experiences like the ones I was creating in the classroom in their home using the things they already had. How can we make the most of the toys we have, the household items we have and set them up in new and unique ways to see more engaged play happening. And I did that in people's homes, in stores.
play spaces in and around Manhattan. And then the pandemic happened. And like so many, everything changed. My model as I knew it could no longer exist. I was not going to be going around with shared materials to people's homes. I also found I was pregnant the week New York City shut down March of 2020. So there was just a lot of unknowns and uncertainty.
Kelly Berry (05:15)
of this.
Jill Lerman (05:18)
But I saw an opportunity because I recognized that people were spending more time at home than maybe ever. They were their child's teacher, their child's caretaker. They were also working full -time or part -time, many of them, and were really looking for support and ideas. So I started sharing things similar to what I was doing in my classes, but over social media.
which grew into the business that I'm now running today, working with families one -on -one to support them in their play and their parenting and coaching, doing content creation and product development with brands and working in partnership with them. And also my monthly membership where I share simple play ideas, again, using the things you already have around in ways that maybe you didn't think of.
as well as offering classes on play and developmental topics. So people really have that foundational knowledge to support play at home. And all that started from kind of this forced pivot in the pandemic.
Kelly Berry (06:23)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I love that. What really appeals to me is the simplicity of it and the using things that you already have. think that, pre having a child, I thought I'll be the mom who cooks everything and makes everything from scratch and creates all of these arts and crafts. And I think really anybody who knows me would be like, if there's any mom who's gonna do that, it's Kelly. However, you know,
Jill Lerman (06:42)
Yeah.
Kelly Berry (06:53)
That's just not the reality. Although there are times when I do those things, I'm not setting up an arts and crafts station every weekend because I just don't have the time. So talk a little bit about what that looks like to keep it really simple. And also, why is play so important as a part of a child's development?
Jill Lerman (07:02)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Hmm.
Yeah, it's such a great question. So I think that's a great place to start. Play really, I believe, as an educator is the best tool that we have to support our children across every area of their growth. So not just in terms of their physical growth, their large muscle groups, their small muscle groups, their cognitive growth, their language skills, but also the emotional growth.
that comes from certainly opportunities for creativity, for problem solving. Play is an opportunity to help build resilience, build independence. And I think there's something a little scary that is happening right now with this shift in the world, all this access to technology that we didn't have in generations past, where we're kind of moving away from these play -based childhoods that used to be
kind of the norm and the standard. But our children need, need, not even want or crave, need for their development that play time, that open -ended opportunities to explore, to test out different things, to really grow and develop into the people that they're meant to be. And I think that,
Kelly Berry (08:18)
and
Jill Lerman (08:40)
Again, I'm not here to, we can talk about screen time and all that stuff. I'm not here to be the screen police. I think there can be value in screen time. I think it's all about the boundaries that we set around it and kind of how we approach it. But I do think that for many, it's become a replacement for what play once was in childhood. And I think it's really important that we still make that time and prioritize play.
Kelly Berry (09:08)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (09:10)
Every expert that I, colleague of mine that I work with, whether it's speech pathologists, physical therapists, occupational therapists, pediatricians, I mean, I could go on, it always comes back to play. Always, always, always. And I feel like there's just so much, even in what to us as adults from the outside kind of could look purposeless, that is actually quite purposeful for our children.
and they need that time to work through these different things through play opportunities. In terms of what you were touching on with the simplicity, I can relate to this so much because what I thought was simple when I was teaching these classes, when I was in the preschool classroom,
took on a whole new meaning to me when I actually became a parent myself. Because I too, I love a good sensory bin and that's kind of setting play as like a love language for me. So there are things and kind of creative things that I love to get into that maybe are the next step up, let's say, from the most simple. But that being said, once I became a mom, I was like, no, no, no, no.
Kelly Berry (10:20)
Mm -hmm.
Thank you.
Jill Lerman (10:27)
We got to pair this back. I don't have the bandwidth for a complicated setup. I don't have the bandwidth for an involved and complicated cleanup. And furthermore, what I kind of realized or was reminded of, because this knowledge was in there already from the classroom days, was that it doesn't need to be complicated to be meaningful. And I was kind of adding that pressure to myself.
Kelly Berry (10:52)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (10:52)
and that it was not necessary for my daughter to get the value and all of the benefits that we mentioned out of the experience. So knowing that and understanding that, I really wanted to help other families understand that too. Like, hey, this doesn't have to be the Pinterest perfect thing. This doesn't have to be, you know, that adorable craft that you saw. And in fact, I'd even venture to say we don't want it to be, we want it to look like...
you know, the child approach this in their own unique way. We don't want there to be a one way to do it or a quote, right way to do it. We want more of a process based experience. And so that means that the most productive and engaged play or art or, you know, sensory experience, whatever it might be is gonna be messy. And I don't mean that necessarily. I mean, it could be messy, like your kids covered in paint or mud, right? And there's value in that too. But I'm talking about messy, like this is not gonna look particularly organized or together.
95, 98 % of the time, you might look at this and kind of be like, my gosh, it looks like a bomb went off in here. That to me is a good sign. So I just want to throw that out there as well. I think we're often fed, especially in this age of social media, these things that look perfect and then we try to set it out and it's either unsuccessful, our child has no interest in it or.
Kelly Berry (11:59)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (12:15)
they do it, but it's not coming out the way the person showed it. And then we're kind of feeling like we failed or they failed and we're kind of adjusting it. And it shouldn't be about that. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to get out there to families.
Kelly Berry (12:27)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. So what are some good examples of like what that looks like in reality?
Jill Lerman (12:35)
Yeah, so it's a great question. I think a lot of this is going to vary by age and stage, right? Because some of this is just dependent on where our children are at in terms of their play skills and kind of what developmental skills they have so far. But for purposes of today, let's talk about like a toddler, right? Because we both are toddler moms. So what a simple prompt.
Kelly Berry (12:40)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (13:01)
I call them because I feel like it's that little something to kind of get your child started and kind of, and then they take it from there. So a simple prompt for a toddler could be, maybe we want to think about what they're interested in first and foremost, because children at any age, no matter what age your child is, if you're listening to this, they're always going to be more likely to play for longer stretches of time and be more into it when it follows something that they're currently into. The same way that we would, right? Like we want
Kelly Berry (13:06)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (13:30)
take part and spend more time in things that we enjoy. And our kids are no different. So for, let's say you're like, have a, your child is a vehicle lover. They're super into their cars and their trucks. Let's say the same child is also really like into bath time. They could be in the bath for an hour. You know, if they weren't totally pruney and they have to go to bed and you had to take them out, they'd stay in there forever. So when I hear that, I'm like, okay, an amazing, simple prompt for that child could be,
Kelly Berry (13:33)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (13:59)
putting a bowl of warm water, some plastic vehicles, right? Cause things that could get wet next to it. Maybe we put out a sponge or a washcloth and just see what they do. Right? Now we've recreated this opportunity. The idea in my mind, when I put that out as like, maybe this is going to become like a car wash, right? Or like give the cars a bath or something of that nature.
Kelly Berry (14:06)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (14:24)
But what's amazing about an open -ended prompt is that that child can make that into anything they want. Maybe that's how they start. Maybe once they've kind of, the water is out and has been kind of dumped and it's on the touts, whatever, maybe now the bowl gets overturned and this bowl becomes a hill that the cars are driving up and down. Or maybe it becomes a mountain. Or maybe we like, now we're gonna take out some blocks and build on top of it. And now it's like a tunnel or a garage or a bridge.
Maybe the washcloth becomes a blanket and the cars are going to sleep. I mean, I'm just thinking off the top of my head here. But the idea is, what are some things that we can put out together in partnership with each other? And again, super simple. These are things everyone has, right? Not anything like crazy you have to go out and buy that can be used in a multitude of ways, right? It's not a one and done. It's not like, all right, we did this, now it's over. Because how we see these elongated stretches are that there are multiple play possibilities.
Kelly Berry (15:00)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (15:24)
And then again, coming back to does it follow the child's current interests? So immediately they get more intrigued. Another great toddler one that just works honestly, even as children get older, well into the elementary school years, building challenges. If you have a child that's really into their magnetic tiles or their blocks or whatever, but until we get to a certain age, and honestly, even once we get to a certain age, it can be hard to self
A lot of children need a little bit of support and then they'll take it and run. So this is not about us doing it for them, but rather kind of opening up a door that then they can take it to the next place. So I love if your child is into a certain character, you know, from a show, from a book, and you have figurines, or they're really into their animals right now, or their car, whatever it might be, and they're putting that out with the building material.
Kelly Berry (15:50)
you.
Jill Lerman (16:14)
And then we present some kind of challenge. I wonder if you could build a barn for these horses. I wonder if you could build a castle only in blue for Elsa, right? We're taking this thing that they're super into, we're presenting a really simple idea to kind of get them going. And then from there, they will take it and they will run. It'll go in all these other directions that you never even imagined possible, but it's just that little something. Sometimes this could also look
putting out a toy in a place they're not used to seeing it. Like, don't underestimate the novelty of like your favorite thing that you usually play with in your bedroom, showing up in the kitchen while mom is getting dinner ready, or like showing up on the stairs, or taking an inside toy outside. Like, that's like, you know, for a child, to us it's this simple nothing tweak, but for a child this opens up like a whole new door of possibilities.
Kelly Berry (16:49)
Mm -hmm.
You
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jill Lerman (17:11)
I hope that gives at least some idea to the kinds of ideas I'm talking about. In my membership, this is like what I share, 15 to 20 ideas broken down by relative age and developmental stage, but that simple and like written like a recipe, like you need this and this. Step one, put it here. Step two, do this. Step three, they play, essentially. So to get you going,
Kelly Berry (17:18)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, that's amazing. So a couple of quick questions before we move on from that. So in your membership, when you say broken down by age, what ages do you provide information like this for?
Jill Lerman (17:39)
Mm -hmm.
So it's a great question. I like to say that the membership is most geared toward children roughly zero to seven years old. And I say zero because there are ideas from infancy, from newborn stage. However, it is designed in such a way that these play principles are impactful well past that age. And these foundational play skills and these ideas, and they're designed to be open -ended enough
Kelly Berry (18:01)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (18:16)
that they can work as your children grow. They're also designed to be open -ended enough that if you have siblings at home, these are things that the children can do together. And part of what I talk about in the membership is like, I give what I call pro tips, but little tweaks that are like, hey, wanna get your older child involved in this, you know, baby activity? Try it like this. Or setting this up for multiples, try it like this.
Kelly Berry (18:23)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (18:43)
the idea being that these are things that really can grow with your child and again, are open -ended enough that they're gonna approach it in the way that their current skill set is able to. So for even a child, let's say past seven years old, these ideas that are listed in like the preschool and beyond category, your child can do, but they're just gonna be taking it next level. It's gonna be a little more complex. I give ideas for different processes you can layer in.
Kelly Berry (19:06)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (19:11)
And also the other thing I want to mention is I do break it down by relative age, because I think that's helpful, but it really is more about developmental skills, also talk about in the membership, like, hey, if your child's doing this. Because the thing is, like, you could have a six -month -old that is sitting up unassisted that's crawling. know, you could also have a six -month -old that just started rolling and isn't doing those things. So the play ideas and the way you approach them might look different, even though both kids are six months.
Kelly Berry (19:17)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (19:39)
So I really try to give that information there as well. So you can kind of figure out, okay, this is what's appropriate for my child, even if it's in this section.
Kelly Berry (19:48)
Yeah. Okay, that was one question. Another question I have is, are these activities designed to involve the parent with the child or to encourage independent play? Talk a little bit about what the role is with the parent and the child because, yeah, know a lot of parents, a challenge is they don't have a lot of time
Jill Lerman (19:58)
Mm, yeah.
Such a great question.
Kelly Berry (20:13)
play or, you know, like they're trying to do other things. So they're trying to get their child to do something. But, know, what is, what's the importance of that role of the parent being
Jill Lerman (20:18)
Yeah.
my gosh, such a great question. Here's, have a couple of thoughts that I wanna make sure that I hit on. The first thing is that, of course play is a way that we can connect with our children, right? Certainly for me, like I said earlier, it is the love language. I get a lot of joy from being a part of that experience from time to time, not always.
I think that if it is a source of joy and connection for you, you want to, you do wanna be involved. I think what we wanna think about though, so independent play, and I think we'll talk probably more about this as our conversation goes on, that's a huge part of the work I do supporting families. And the reason for this, think one is people are trying to see more of
but often it's complicated how. And if you're someone that's listening to this and you're like, feel caught in like an unsustainable cycle of constantly feeling like I have to entertain my child. Or if you are someone who's leaning into more screen time than you wish to be, know, independent play can really be a tool that supports you. I know for me personally, as a mom who is running my own business and I'm also the primary caretaker for my daughter, I don't have full -time childcare.
I count on independent play to run my business. So I just want to kind of throw that out there. I also think sometimes independent play gets a bad rep because parents feel guilty or neglectful in some way. So I want to just start with setting the record straight on that. Independent play is incredibly beneficial for your child. It is a necessity for children.
Kelly Berry (21:50)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (22:12)
And when, even with the best intentions, when adults get involved in our child's play, we change it. Simple as that. And the reason is because our skillsets are not equal, right? Like I am not a three -year -old. So the way that I approach materials is gonna be different than the way my daughter does. And my ideas are different than my daughter's. And automatically when I'm involved in the play,
Kelly Berry (22:19)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (22:40)
it changes from the way she would play on her own or the way she would play with a peer. So that's not to say that there isn't value in the connection that comes with playing from your child. But when you think about it like that, you're like, gosh, well, I want them to have the benefits of all those things we spoke about earlier, like the creativity and the problem solving and all of that stuff. And really the best way to do that is in this independent play time where they're, and child directed play, they're really the ones
that are holding the reins, that are in control of where the play goes and how it's going. So in terms of our role, I like to think of the best role for the parent as being like, I call it an active observer. You're involved, you're present, because I do think our children know and feel the difference between like, we're actually in this with them and we're kind of like.
you know, we're doing other things, we're scrolling on our phone, we're, you know, whatever it might be. So we want to be present. And if that's present, like this is a time where we're engaging together, that we really are present in that. And if we're present, like they're playing independently, and I'm sitting on the couch and maybe I'm, you know, just I'm just there. It doesn't mean that I'm not doing something else, like perhaps working or reading my book or
This is the time we're scrolling like is completely reasonable, I think, you know, if you're doing that. But we're there, we're within earshot and eyeshot and we're present. And I say this because this is really more for like young children specifically. And when you're building independent play skills, the vast majority of young children cannot play separately from where their parent is. They want to be able to see you and hear you. They want to be able to check in.
And so I think sometimes we have to reframe how we're imagining independent play because to me, independent play often is my daughter is like three feet away, right? But she's directing it. She is kind of engaging her own thing. She's the one in control and kind of, you know, doing it. But I'm here. Like I might be here and on my computer, but I'm very much here and in this process. I also think another way that parents are involved are, you know, when we talk about the prompts.
Kelly Berry (24:40)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Jill Lerman (24:59)
I think that there's something incredibly connecting about your child's feeling seen by you, right? And like, you put out this thing, that's exactly what I'm into right now. You noticed that I'm really into filling up baskets and dumping it out and you put out this exploration with all these different sized things and containers, like you see me, right? So even if that was put out with the intention of me then to be like, I'm going to do my work for a couple of minutes.
Kelly Berry (25:07)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (25:28)
while you do your work, which is your play, and when I'm done or when the timer goes off or when we can get into kind of how you can set up independent play, but whatever it is that you're saying, you know, then I can join you or then we're going to go to the park or then we're going to whatever. But I think that there's still a deep, deep connection in the feeling seen and cared for enough that someone set up this thing for me. Right. So I think that's another thing we have to think about as parents that
Kelly Berry (25:35)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (25:57)
That is connection. And the last thing I'll say for now, and I know we'll continue to get into it, is that play is just one of many ways that we can connect with our children. And I'm saying this to you as someone who I help people with play for a living. So of course, I see the value and the why play is important, both with your child and in an independent play capacity. But I also think that sometimes we're led to believe that playing with our child is
Kelly Berry (26:11)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (26:27)
the only way that we can really connect with them and speak their language. And if we're not, then we're a bad parent. Or if we don't enjoy it, then we're terrible. They're going to feel neglected. They're going to feel unloved. There's this quote that I'm constantly seeing come up in my social media that's something like, when a child has a bad day, don't say blah, blah, blah. They say play with me. Or I don't know if you've seen this. And I get the intention. But I think that it makes a lot of people feel
Kelly Berry (26:51)
Mm.
Jill Lerman (26:56)
And I feel like, you know, play, yes, that's one source, but so is going for a walk together. So is, you know, preparing a meal or a snack together. Bath time and different caretaking tasks can be deep points of connection. And play is just one thing. So if we've spent all day, you know, or great chunks of the day filling our child's cup with all of these different points of connection,
Kelly Berry (26:57)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (27:26)
and now it's play time and that's their time while we're doing whatever it is that we need to in that moment, that is completely reasonable. And that doesn't make a child feel unloved or neglected. It's just a different framing of what play is. I hope that answers that question. It's kind of a complicated level question to attack.
Kelly Berry (27:43)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I don't think I've seen that quote, but I think I understand the intent is basically like if your child is, maybe probably what you need to do is stop and be present. And it's using play as an example, but, you know, which. Yeah. I know there's a lot of complicated layers there and I'm not an expert in children.
Jill Lerman (28:03)
That's right. That's right.
That's right.
Kelly Berry (28:14)
But to like build on your point, I've also read and heard, know, like children don't really, they don't have as defined of a definition of play as we do. So you have so much latitude in what you introduce to them as play. And a lot of children like to have responsibility and to be helpers. so, you know, involving them in prepping a meal or folding laundry, you know, they don't really know the difference. They don't know that folding laundry is
Jill Lerman (28:24)
That's right.
That's right. That's right.
Kelly Berry (28:42)
a game, like you can kind of make it into one or make it into something that's fun for them that also lets you like focus on the tasks that you need to while involving them, bonding with them.
Jill Lerman (28:45)
Totally, totally.
That's right. Yes. And I think that I would even venture to say, you know, and I'm thinking again, I keep coming back to toddlers, but this is really true of children period. They want to feel like valued members of your family system. They want to feel empowered. They want to feel involved. And I think I, I mean, a huge part of my parenting personally is involving my daughter and things like that. And furthermore,
Kelly Berry (29:11)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (29:21)
I don't know, if you have like, have a toddler tower, which is one of the best things I've ever purchased and spent money on in parenting hands down. But my daughter from the time she was like standing up unassisted, like wanting change, you know, could really like solidly stand, has been at counter height with us and wanting to be involved. And there are so many ways that they can be involved. You know, now she has some basic, you know, she has child safe knives and she can chop and she.
Kelly Berry (29:26)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (29:50)
But even at the very beginning, like being able to sprinkle things into the mixing bowl, helping with stirring and pouring. And she loved it. And she was more likely to try new foods when she was involved in the creation of making them. So there's so much value in those moments. And like you said, they're novel and they're fun. And what seems mundane to us, not mundane to our children.
Kelly Berry (29:54)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (30:16)
So it is so much more about the connection and the presence than it is about the task at hand per se.
Kelly Berry (30:22)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. We have a toddler tower too. For those who may not be familiar, it's like one of those little ladder square things where they can climb up and stand and be at counter height. You don't have to worry about them falling off of a ladder. Kind of keeps them contained. Yeah. Yeah. We have one. We have one too. And I know, you know, it's fun to think about having your child cook with you. And then it's another thing when they want to crack the eggs and it's like...
Jill Lerman (30:32)
Yes. Yep.
Yeah, yeah, they're enclosed and safely in there, yeah.
Kelly Berry (30:52)
You know, it makes everything take 10 times longer, but I do think that you can involve them and even letting them watch or talking to them about what you're doing, I find can entertaining, especially for children who are really curious and they, you know, they want to be held while you're doing everything so they can see. Yeah.
Jill Lerman (30:52)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely, yeah. Yes, yes, I know. Then if you're that parent, like the toddler tower is your answer also for the sake of your arm and your back. As your child grows, I'm like, what used to be pretty easy is now becoming more and more difficult. And that was a great time to kind of lean into
Kelly Berry (31:21)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, for sure. Yeah, so, what else about play? Like, how does it, I know you've mentioned like resiliency and problem solving, but what are some things, either I guess ways that you can introduce play or the value of play in developing those particular skills?
Jill Lerman (31:48)
Hmm. Yeah. So I think, you know, for one, you know, let's think about, I'd love to talk a little bit about some of what you were saying earlier about how play doesn't always look like the way we imagine it to be. I think that's really, really important because one, for the reasons that you mentioned, but also because I think it helps us reframe as adults to look and realize
maybe they actually are playing. Like what to me, I didn't think was, I think we often are like, stacking blocks, right? Like taking care of a doll. Yes, of course. But those are, you know, just some ways and particularly with babies, with toddlers. my gosh, toddler play, especially in the earliest stages often like to the outside person might not look like play at all. It's dumping and banging
Kelly Berry (32:22)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (32:43)
knocking things down and picking them back up and knocking them down again. We could get more deeply into it. I don't want to go too far because it's kind of like a whole other tangent, but schema, which is essentially like, you know, different, almost obsessive behaviors that we see in every child across the globe, no matter who they are, no matter what their race or socioeconomic status, these are patterns that we see in every single child.
some of them don't really seem like play. For example, like positioning is a schema. And that's like when a child, if you've ever noticed your toddler lining things up very meticulously, like along a path and like, or they're lining up markers, they're lining up crayons when you bring out their food, the bowl, the cup, everything has to be like in a line. This actually is a play pattern.
But it doesn't necessarily look like play in the traditional sense. Another is trajectory. So this is when, if you've ever had, and I know we all have, the experience of your child throwing their plate, constantly throwing their plate, and you pick it back up, or they're throwing their toy out of the stroller. Like, I'm thinking about it now, it's so triggering for me, even knowing what I know. I was like, my gosh, like I pick it up, she's throwing it out again.
But this actually is something really important that's happening for our children developmentally because they're in that schema, they're understanding cause and effect, right? They're experimenting with gravity and early physics. There are all these things happening in their brain through this repetitive action of schema and that for them in those periods of time is play. So, you know, there are nine schema that are the most commonly observed. I'm kind of obsessed with this topic. So if
Kelly Berry (34:28)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (34:35)
and a following along on my page, you'll learn a lot more about it. But this in toddlerhood and even in like the later stage of your baby's first year is often how they're playing and how they're engaging with the world. It's why we might see a child around the 10 month mark, not, you know, stacking their blocks in the traditional sense or their rings, you know, they're stacking ring toy, but instead banging two of them together
taking the ring stacker and dumping all the rings off of it and not putting them back on, right? So these are kind of play patterns that when we start to have some foundational knowledge about development, we're like, that actually is how they're engaging. That for them is developing cause and effect, understanding my action has this reaction. It's problem solving. When children are like around the one year mark, really one to two years old is when they're really mastering this.
but what fits in what containers? Have you ever noticed, like, did your daughter go through a period where she was just obsessed with, like, putting things into containers and dumping them out? Or like, like the, yeah, right, mostly dumping, truly. But like food storage containers, like they, like, right? So this is like a thing every child goes through from one time or another. And often it's because they're developing all these skills of like spatial awareness. What fits where?
Kelly Berry (35:42)
Mostly just dubbing.
Yeah, yeah,
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (36:00)
Right? that problem solving, know, understanding the relationship of objects in space to one another. You know, again, that trajectory of like how something falls when I drop it hard or I dump it hard, you know, this happens and it rolled, the ball rolls farther away. If I do it softly, it stays here. All of these things are making very vital connections in the brain. And then as we grow,
then of course there are more obvious things like strengthening the small muscle groups in the hands, right? The precision it takes to pick something up and put it down. It's different mobile skills that are happening as our child is moving toward things when they're learning to crawl, walk, jump, et cetera. So there's all of those skill building things. But the things that I think are maybe less obvious and like less tangible are these things like the resilience.
Kelly Berry (36:43)
Okay.
Jill Lerman (36:53)
and the independence. that's something, one that just comes from continued opportunities to try, to experiment, to get something to happen in the way they want it to, whatever that looks like in their age and stage. So as our children grow, maybe it is that stacking of blocks and they want to make the tower this big, but it keeps falling, right? So of course there's the more tangible value of like understanding balance.
right, understanding, you know, gravity, like those things, the precision of physically putting the blocks on top of each other. But the resilience comes in in the, fell, that's so frustrating. Deep breath, okay, I'm gonna try again, right? And this is also a place where we talk about the role of the adult, where that becomes really vital because they do need some of that scaffolding and that support and that, you know, not the solving the problem for
Kelly Berry (37:34)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (37:47)
Right? Because I think that often is the instinct is like, because I can see as the adult exactly what needs to happen for that to stay up. But instead, seeing like the, gosh, that can that looks so frustrating. You're trying to get it to stay up and it keeps falling down. Hmm. I wonder what we can do. Right. So now I'm providing the scaffolding for one. I'm validating the emotion of like, that's annoying. Right. That's frustrating and helping them identify the feeling they're experiencing. But also I'm modeling the
Kelly Berry (37:48)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm
Jill Lerman (38:18)
taking a breath, because when something's frustrating and we're getting stressed or anxious, you know, to recenter ourselves, right? So we're modeling that in that moment. And then we're presenting the, like, how do we solve this? What can we do? We're opening the floor to something is not working. What's something different we can try, right? That's a life skill. That's not just building blocks. That's every single problem that we're going to encounter as we grow. I, as an adult,
Kelly Berry (38:35)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (38:44)
do not have a very big frustration tolerance, I can tell you. I find myself kind of using the tools that I instill in my daughter and kind of bringing myself back to those basics to get through stressful moments, right? And kind of coming back to the like, okay, this is not ideal. I'm feeling really frustrated about this. It's okay to feel frustrated, but what can we do? So that's one thing.
Kelly Berry (38:59)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (39:10)
I also think it's an opportunity for, again, using the same scenario just because I think it makes it easier, but how disappointing it feels when things are not going the way that we want them to. I mean, what person at any age cannot relate to that in some facet of like, I have this expectation. What's happening is not hitting what that expectation was. I'm so disappointed and sad. And how do I get through
And play allows so many opportunities for that. In this block example, for our child in the small world that is theirs, that is that deep. The block not staying up the way they want it to feels that deeply wounding to many children and that deeply disappointing. giving them the tools to work through that disappointment and find a way are the same things that then they can use down the line when other things are disappointed.
Kelly Berry (39:39)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (40:08)
and disappointing. They didn't make the team. Their friend said something that hurt them. You know, they're heartbroken. There are so many things in life where things don't go the way that we hoped, and we have to find a path forward while still acknowledging the deep hurt and disappointment. And there are constant opportunities in play for that to happen. And that, to
Kelly Berry (40:16)
Thank you.
Jill Lerman (40:32)
above all else is maybe the most important thing that play allows. we don't even have to necessarily set something out with the intention of that happening. That's just a natural byproduct of these child led experiences.
Kelly Berry (40:46)
Mm -hmm, yeah. So that leads me to a lot more questions. And I know that you said you're not the screen police and I don't wanna go down that path either, what's the biggest difference in how children learn through play versus how they learn through watching play on screens?
Jill Lerman (40:51)
Yeah?
Okay, it's a really good question. There's a lot of research and if anybody listening to this, like feel free to reach out to me. I'm happy to send you things on someone like I like information. I see it and read it and understand it before I make my decision. And to me, it's pretty black and white when you look at the research around screen time that it actually is changing a child's brain when there's too much of it happening.
Now, some of this, there are a lot of variables. So the first thing that I'll say is that a lot of this depends on what our child is watching. So some types of screen time are more Certainly, separate from something like a show that your child's watching, something like FaceTiming with someone is responsive, it's active. So that's not going to be counted into necessarily the group of screen time that I'm talking about.
Kelly Berry (41:48)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (42:06)
And the same is true in There are shows that require more responsiveness from your child than others. I also would be looking at, even when I think about the things that I allow my daughter to watch, the Something that's flashing back and forth a lot and has a lot of boom, boom, bang, bing, bing. A lot of noise, a lot of flashing, a lot of switch back and forth.
Kelly Berry (42:17)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (42:34)
is very stimulating, as opposed to something that's a little bit slower in nature. And I think when you start to pay attention to that, you will see the difference. But some of this I would tell parents is like, every child is different. Every child's stimulation tolerance is different. And the way that children respond to things is going to be different. So I would encourage you to just keep a log. Even over the course of a couple of days,
And you'll notice, you're gonna start to see differences. You will see differences between when your child is on a phone and a tablet versus the TV. You will see differences between they watched this or this and what it does to their mood and their behavior. You're gonna get a lot of information from that.
specific to your child. how much did they watch? What time of day did they watch? All of these things factor in to what ultimately is going to be, I think, the appropriate amount of screen time that's right for your child and your family. And I also want to just say, look, different times are going to have different rules. sick, probably going to be upping the screen time, right? You're traveling, might be having more screen time than usual. But these are things that I'm just as a general rule that we can kind of look at when we're figuring out
kind of feels right for our family in this season. But in terms of like the difference, it's just a lot less active. And the thing with like screens just in general, and I like worry about this and almost see it in myself, the dopamine hits, like, you know, from that like on Instagram as you get older, but for our children of like the bam, the boom, the things, the bright color, the stuff, it's...
Kelly Berry (43:48)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (44:12)
it is almost like the same as like a drug in excess, right? So it's just, you can't then compete with like the slower pace or the problem solving. And I think the biggest thing that a lot of the research is showing, it changes kind of the connections in the brain so that then we're more looking for that response in the brain as opposed to the one of kind of the working things out ourselves and the thing falling and having to rework
Kelly Berry (44:17)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (44:40)
So then what happens is our children don't have as much patience for working through these moments. They're getting frustrated much more easily. And then as they grow and we're seeing things like they're trying to learn to write their letters or different things that come at school, the focus is not there. The tolerance to work through as we're perfecting a skill is not there because the brain patterns have changed.
Kelly Berry (44:45)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (45:08)
So I hope I'm articulating that well enough. That's not like my, you know, really like where my research and expertise is, but it is related. So I have some knowledge of it, but I think, you know, that's the core difference. So it's not that like all screen time is evil. It's just that we really want to make sure that it's not becoming a replacement for these other opportunities.
Kelly Berry (45:15)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was one question that I was thinking of and I think that's a great way to look at it. But the other one I was thinking at is like, is there like a formula or a balance, like how much independent played as a child need plus how much interaction with other children their age plus, you know, in like play with a parent, like what is that balance of different types of play look like?
Jill Lerman (45:57)
Yeah, yeah, gosh, and I wish I had like the magic number. You know, I think a lot of this is gonna change as a child grows. So for example, in our child's earliest years, the interactions that are gonna be the most beneficial are really going to come from the independent interaction and the interaction with the caretaker. You know, we're not really seeing so much
peer to peer play happening until later. You know, that doesn't mean they don't enjoy being around other children and that there isn't, you know, benefit in that, but we're not really going to see that so much in the earliest years. I mean, even now my daughter is three and change and is just kind of starting to get into that more interactive play now. I think often, you know, from the time our kids are like a couple of months old, we're being told, they need socialization. They need socialization and like,
Kelly Berry (46:44)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (46:54)
I don't, from like a play perspective, you know, I think that that really, the real interactive play is gonna come later. That doesn't mean there's not benefit to being out in the world and being around other parents, other kids, but I think that's important to note. And then as they get older, that becomes a really important piece of the puzzle, is that in peer to peer interaction. And, you know, particularly I love the idea as children grow, I think about like when I was growing up and in the cul -de -sac we lived, there was kind of like a mixed age.
Kelly Berry (47:01)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (47:23)
group. So we had a couple of older kids, a couple of younger kids, couple in the middle and kind of all coming together to share ideas. And I feel like that's really where a lot of magic starts to happen as our kids grow. You know, I also will say I think that it hurts a little to say because I'm a parent, I'm like, gosh, this is going to be rough. But I think that in terms of play, as our children grow, it really becomes more about the independent play and the peer to peer play and less
Kelly Berry (47:25)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (47:52)
about our interaction. Now that doesn't mean that we don't still play an incredibly important role, but I think in terms of our role in play, it really starts to shift as our children are growing. But I think that, know, independent play always is gonna be, to me, probably the most important thing to prioritize. And when people are looking for just like an idea in terms of the routine of their day,
Kelly Berry (48:13)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (48:19)
I would say thinking, and again, it depends on age and all these other factors, but as a general rule, just thinking that most of the play is that independent child led play. Now that could also be independent play for like, let's say siblings, could be them together. It's more about your involvement being less active in it, if that makes sense. But that's really gonna be what we prioritize. And then I think finding
Kelly Berry (48:41)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (48:48)
these other opportunities to connect, you know, through all the other ways. And it also is not an all or nothing, and it's not an always and a never. I think it's just about kind of thinking, okay, we want more of the time to be that, but that doesn't mean don't ever be involved, you know? I think it's just about trying to figure out some balance in it so it's not always being directed by you. Does that answer that question?
Kelly Berry (49:06)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, it sure does. And that is a really good segue into my next question, which is, how does this change or does it even change if you have an only child versus a child with siblings?
Jill Lerman (49:30)
yeah, in terms of just play period or.
Kelly Berry (49:34)
Like play period and like parent or caretaker involvement in play.
Jill Lerman (49:39)
Hmm. Yeah. So I think when it comes to sibling play, and this is, this is something I support a lot of families in in coaching because sibling dynamics and play can be very tricky. it's also worth mentioning though, that I also support a lot of parents of only children who have felt like they've become the default pair, playmate. and kind of figuring out that.
Kelly Berry (49:59)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (50:02)
I think there's things to say on both. terms of sibling play, I really think that a parent's job is to, you know, in that kind of overseeing capacity and also to like maintain safety, particularly if a younger sibling is young, know, but I would say like, for example, in my membership, a lot of the prompts that I share are really designed for sibling play purposes
Often the parents role in that is going to be making sure everyone's body is safe first and foremost. So that often means like we want to make sure we don't have things that are hazardous. tricky is as children get older, the parts to their toys get smaller. I don't know if you're finding any of that now. So that can be a little difficult with a younger sibling. So we really want to be there in that capacity to be sure that everybody's safe. But I also think the adult role comes into play a lot where
Kelly Berry (50:45)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (50:58)
When we have a baby, let's say in a preschool age child, just to throw out an example, and let's say we put out oversized Duplo blocks and we're playing together. And that's a great option because it's open -ended where the baby might be banging two blocks together or knocking down a block tower. Some of the things we talked about, our preschool age child might be making complex structures, making a city, making a zoo, whatever they're doing. But it's one thing that we can have
for them to interact together but kind of approach in their own way. And that's a key part of sibling play. But part of a parent's job, and this is also gonna be a view of a baby who's in that knocking down stage and that is their play right now. But they go and they swipe down Big Brother's building that he was just working on so hard.
you know, this is where some of the squabbles begin. And it can be really difficult because it's completely appropriate for the baby. But it's also completely understandable for the older child who is meticulously working to make this thing happen. So I think where a parent's role really comes in in those situations is what we're setting out and making sure it's safe and open -ended and approachable for everyone. And then also negotiating these things and helping the children negotiate these things as they come
So maybe in this case that comes with them, no, no, no, I won't let you knock down Tom's tower. If you want to knock things down, I will build things for you over here. And it's going to take constant reinforcing of that boundary, but it will eventually stick. For our older child, maybe this looks like, I'm so sorry that happened. That is so frustrating. You're working so hard on it. I wonder if we can put this up on the table.
Kelly Berry (52:26)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (52:39)
so that baby sister can't reach there and that way your beautiful tower that you're working on will not be interrupted. Or maybe we don't offer that solution. Maybe it's
what do you think we could do or where do you think we can place this so it would be harder for her to reach? So now that resilience, that problem solving, that collaboration, how do we work with other people who have different ideas? I mean, like, hello, this is like a major life skill, right? That is gonna come into play again and again and again, and it all starts here. So I think our role is really in the facilitation, the figuring out how we can do this in a safe way, how can we encourage opportunities to be doing things together.
Kelly Berry (52:54)
tools.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (53:18)
but still approaching it in a way that is appropriate for each child. I feel like is your main role there. And the thing is, as they grow, they're gonna start taking those things and running with it and your involvement is gonna become less and less. Your need to supervise in that way is gonna lessen and lessen till we're at the point that they're just kind of running off and doing their own thing and like, mama gets a minute. But it all kind of starts there with your facilitation so that then they build the skills to be able to work through some of those things.
Kelly Berry (53:40)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (53:47)
themselves and also just for safety reasons. And then I think with the only child question, this is tricky. And look, mean, right now my daughter is an only child and it's something I'm very aware of that she doesn't have that built in playmate and now is just starting to really get into the age that she has that interest and is looking for some of that. I think I'm not a replacement for a peer.
Kelly Berry (54:08)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (54:12)
And I'm not a replacement for a sibling for all the reasons that we mentioned earlier that were just, we're not equals. So I really try to maintain my role in play with all the different skills that we've talked about of creating these opportunities for her to play independent play with something specialized set out or having family moments that are of open -ended creation where we all kind of approach it in our own way, but I'm not necessarily leading her through it.
Kelly Berry (54:19)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (54:39)
and then seeking out opportunities for her to have that time with other kids. making sure there is, or she's also in right now in a camp program, so I know she's getting a lot of that there, making sure that that's kind of built into it. But I do think it's important for parents to know if they are in that situation, that even if you were playing with your child every single time they asked, which for all the reasons we mentioned, is not really sustainable for you and isn't really beneficial for them,
you're not going to be the same as the things that they're getting from working with someone of a similar age and kind of playing and interacting with them. So we still want to make sure that we're finding opportunities to prioritize that, going to the local parks, setting up a play date, you know, making sure if they're in some kind of program that they're getting a lot of chances to explore that there.
Kelly Berry (55:12)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, that's great. This has all been really great. We're coming up on time, but I did want to ask this question. So as you were talking about the baby and then like preschool age child, you know what I see a lot happen in that situation, just in environments that have been around, you know, a lot of times it's talking to the preschool age child like they, you know, your baby sister didn't know any better. They didn't mean to, you know, it's almost like.
Jill Lerman (55:53)
Hmm.
Kelly Berry (55:55)
just deal with it type of mentality. you the way that you described handling it and handling it well, I think it just takes a little bit more thought and a little bit more patience. So do you have like a list of like common mistakes that people make or like a list of like different way to approach these things? So maybe people can approach play in a more like encouraging or less frustrating way for their kids.
Jill Lerman (55:58)
Yes.
Well, it's such a good question. I appreciate your saying that. think that, you know, and look, there's truth to what you said, right? Because the baby doesn't know. The baby is learning. And I think there is value in saying to your child, you know, she's still figuring this out. But the key piece that's missing from that is not also validating the emotion of your other child and their feelings and their needs in this situation. I think a mistake
Kelly Berry (56:32)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (56:52)
don't like to use the word mistake, I feel like I'm not sure what other, something that comes up a lot, let's say, with parents that have multiple children and where there are a lot of these sibling things that are coming up is that we're only tending to one person. And very often it's the younger child. And there's reason why that's so.
Kelly Berry (56:58)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (57:17)
We have expectations that the older one should know better or that they're capable of more or whatever it might be. But I think it's so important, especially if we want to really build an intentional relationship between siblings, that we try to make an effort to see it from both perspectives. And again, I feel like this is kind of the theme of our conversation, but it just occurred to me, as I said, that that also is a life skill, right? Seeing things from another perspective and not just your own.
Your perspective is valid, what you're feeling is valid, what you're experiencing is valid and should be acknowledged. And there also is another person here, right? Both things can be true. So I think that, you know, here are also opportunities for that. Baby sister is still learning and figuring it out. I also recognize that you're working really hard and that probably was so disappointing and frustrating, right? So I think that that's really important. And whenever...
Kelly Berry (57:55)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (58:13)
there's an opportunity to kind of come from, and this is true not just in play, this is just parenting period, and it is a struggle. I try to practice what I preach, I'm also a human, and I don't always show up exactly the way I want to all the time, but I think that the more that we can come from a place of empathy, the more that we can come from a place of curiosity and not judgment when it comes to our children.
the more successful and calm and connected our environment at home will be. And that is true as these things come up in play, right? If I'm coming from a place of curiosity, I'm not immediately shutting it down unless of course there's danger, right? That's a different category. But if I'm watching something, we're coming back to that toddler dumping everything out of the bin, right? If I'm watching this and I'm like kind of dying inside as I watch this mess happen before my eyes, and we've all been there,
But I pause, right? I take a second and I come from a place of curiosity and not judgment. The curious part of me is gonna be like, you know, I wonder what they're like, what's up? Like, what are we doing here, right? I can even ask that question. I'm noticing you're dumping everything out of your bins. I'm wondering what's going on, right? And now, or maybe the curiosity doesn't come in actually saying it out anything out loud, but just watching
Kelly Berry (59:20)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (59:35)
And when we watch it for just even 30 seconds, we're like, there's purpose here. What immediately to me was like, gosh, no stop. Now it's like, hmm, actually I'm seeing like there's something happening here and she's engaged, she's involved, she's not, is this unsafe? These are the questions I ask myself. Do I have to stop this? Is this definitely a no? These are the questions that I'd be encouraging parents to ask.
Kelly Berry (59:39)
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (1:00:02)
when it comes certainly to play, but really just period. Does it have to be a no? I don't know about you. I'm saying no all day, all day long. And it's exhausting. And if it's exhausting for me, I can only imagine what it feels like to my daughter to be hearing it all the time. So trying to come from this place of like, does it have to be a no? And sometimes it does, right? Safety, like there are certain things that is a non -negotiable, it's bedtime, right?
Kelly Berry (1:00:11)
Mm -hmm
Jill Lerman (1:00:29)
No, we're not having ice cream for dinner, whatever it is, right? Certain things are a no. But I think as parents, the biggest thing I see is shutting down things that maybe don't have to be shut down. And I think when we save our nose for when we need them, they become more meaningful. Our children are more likely to actually like heed that advice and heed those nose. It also is just more joyful for us. I think that's a key part of getting through parenting is finding joy.
Kelly Berry (1:00:44)
Right now.
Jill Lerman (1:00:58)
and I think our children feel a lot more seen and understood. I, I'll just to give you an example from me personally, my daughter, this was now some time ago, but she was in her room and she had taken out quite literally every stuffed animal was like from their basket. They were all, and I was like, my God, like immediately just wanted them to be put away. Like it was just stuff everywhere and she's taking them and she's like pulling out her diaper pail.
Kelly Berry (1:01:21)
you
Jill Lerman (1:01:27)
So now like the reflexive no is like on the tip of my tongue because like we don't play with the diaper pail. Like the thing is head, like there are just so many reasons why this is a no. But I took the advice that I'm giving and I took a pause. And what I saw was there was like a whole thing happening. She's taking the stuffed animal one by one, bringing them to the diaper pail. And then she's moving the diaper pail and the diaper pail is a train. And the train is going to the science center that's near where we live. And then they're getting off and then a different.
stuffed animals going on and then they're coming back. There was a whole thing happening. And had I said no, I would have missed it. I would have missed this, what ended up being almost a half hour of engaged play that then gave me an opportunity to get something done that I needed to do for work. She would have missed this opportunity to work through all of these different things that she was doing. And in that instance, it didn't have to be a no.
So I think my biggest piece of advice that kind of covers a lot of the different like, you know, mistakes or difficult things that come up is just that coming from a place of curiosity and not judgment, wondering if it has to be a no or is there a way to say yes to this, which sometimes requires some creativity on our part. And also we can bring our child into that problem solving. I want to let you do this, but this is not safe. So what can we do? You know, I want, I want.
Kelly Berry (1:02:24)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (1:02:53)
I see that you're really enjoying the dumping. I can't let you take every book off of the bookshelf right now, but I can give you all of these blocks and these bags and we can dump them in and out of the black, the bags, right? I think that there's always kind of a way to find a solution and that sometimes we just need to kind of take that pause and give the space to find
Kelly Berry (1:03:16)
Yeah, yeah, I love that a lot. It takes work and it takes thought because no is easy and no is really for us in a lot of ways. And I think, like my husband is just, I think particularly good at the being creative about, okay, if she can't do this, what can she do? And so like just redirecting, like if she picks up a rock and you just
Jill Lerman (1:03:23)
Yes.
yeah.
Yes.
Kelly Berry (1:03:45)
don't throw it, you know, it's like, what can she do with that rock or what, you know, what else? And so I try to
Jill Lerman (1:03:47)
That's right. Yes.
or what can she throw, right?
Kelly Berry (1:03:53)
Yeah, what can she throw or like, how do you turn the no that you want to say into a, how about this or, yeah, I'll be thinking a lot about this because I also don't want to like direct her and like instill like my thing. it's complicated.
Jill Lerman (1:03:59)
Yes, 100 % 100 % Kelly
That's right. It's hard to find a, yes, it's really hard to find a balance. I think that when you also are touching on something really important, just behaviorally, particularly with young children, but really just children in general. It's like, our brains are wired, even as adults, our brains are wired to like hear and listen to the thing that we hear. So if I'm saying like, you know, stop running, like don't running, like what we hear is run.
We hear running, right? So it's so how we phrase it, if we want to see the result that we want to see is actually so important. So, you know, stop running is so much better served when we say, you know, walking feet or, or can you walk on your tiptoes? You know, or, you know, how slowly can you walk? Right? So I think that like, kind of that focus on what the can and the yes.
Kelly Berry (1:04:37)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (1:05:04)
serves us in so many different areas, not just play, but it is, it's tricky. And you also don't want to direct too much in another direction, which is why I think that problem solving thing of bringing them into it, that collaboration, that like, I won't let you throw a rock, but let's think together. What can you throw? What can we, what do we see around here that could be thrown? Do you see anything? Right? So now we're not solving it.
Kelly Berry (1:05:24)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jill Lerman (1:05:33)
pointing it kind of on the new road, but then they get to take it and kind of run with it in the next direction.
Kelly Berry (1:05:40)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. There's been so much good stuff. Like I said, I'll be thinking about all of these things. And I know that you do have, you're providing a download that people can talk just a little bit about what that
Jill Lerman (1:05:54)
Yes. Yup.
Yeah, absolutely. So I have a free guide to independent play at any age with some of my tried and true tips. If this is something that you want to see more of at home, if it's something you're working on, but you need some support, it's a really great place to start. So I have a link that I provided to you, Kelly, that when you click, you can get it sent straight to your inbox.
Kelly Berry (1:06:21)
Great, yes. That's in the show notes along with, I know I talked about Jill's website, which has a lot of great resources and more information about her membership program and how you can work with her as well as her Instagram handle. You can go follow her there at jillybeansnyc. But this has been phenomenal. And I know, you know, we talked a lot about toddlers because that's the age children that we have, but your resources do go up through elementary
and beyond as you mentioned because all of these skills are life skills not just play skills. Yeah. So thank you so much. This is great and I can't wait for everybody to hear it. Yep. Have a great day everybody.
Jill Lerman (1:06:49)
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Thank you so much. You too.
Kelly Berry is a strategic business leader and business coach. She is known for her operational excellence and her ability to drive growth and results across multiple industries.
She is also hosting her own podcast, Life Intended.
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